Curse

zwei2stein · Feb 26, 2007, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Well, since Necromancers stole best mesmer skill (cough, SS, cough), there is little hope ...

We need more AOE interupts, AOE punishment or disablement hexes, Stuff like Fevered Dreams (but not being elites) ...

Or make inspiration line actually inspire and provide party buffs (imagine Chaneling being targeted ally enchantement, Imagine Keystone signet ally targeted to allow ally recharge signets, ally targetted Mantra of Recall or Lyssas aura)

I simply no loger accept Me/E in my parties (hello? if i wanted nuker i would get one but i want mesmer that knows his stuff, not the one that spent 90% of his pve life imitating elementalists), at least peope were cured of Me/Mo fast cast healer stuff. Frankly, i am alergic of all Me/x not being mesmers, 50% time i take mesmer in party he does something stupid (like Me/N spamming deathly swarm...)

Cebe · Feb 26, 2007, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I simply no loger accept Me/E in my parties (hello? if i wanted nuker i would get one but i want mesmer that knows his stuff, not the one that spent 90% of his pve life imitating elementalists), at least peope were cured of Me/Mo fast cast healer stuff. Frankly, i am alergic of all Me/x not being mesmers, 50% time i take mesmer in party he does something stupid (like Me/N spamming deathly swarm...)

OMG....

OMG....

It's someone who believes a class should be played as intended!!!

What a happy happy day!!! I thought I'd never see this!

reetkever · Feb 26, 2007, 10:02 AM // 10:02

Well how about making the mesmer's skills useful in PvE?

Mesmers have some energy burning, which is useless because most monsters have about unlimited energy (Unless you use visage against a bunch of trolls or whatever). -3 energy doesn't mean anything.

Fast casting bosses make it very hard to interrupt.
Shutdown mostly is useful for a few classes only, where elementalists, warriors, assassins etc. can attack any profession.

Mesmers need more multiple target attacks, and way more effective skills as well. In PvP, the -13 energy might mean a difference, but in PvE, the monster has it back in 2 seconds. Lightbringer's Gaze would make a great mesmer skill, for example. (mass interrupt and damage).

How about buffing Energy Surge again, with a bit less damage but more energy stealing?

Ferret · Feb 26, 2007, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Well, i have a mesmer and think i done my bit for the mesmer cause the other day in Dasha Vestible (Nightfall mission).

The other players in the group were soon saying great mesmer as i quickly shutdown and degen'd most of the opponents while the warrior finished them off.

Admitedly, the other mesmer in the party (yep, a party with two mesmers!!!) didnt exactly help by dying every encounter, but that was possibly an armour issue.

I think mesmer can rock (i play mesmer/monk, but mostly mix dom and illusion skills), but you need to be careful with skills.

Finally, i do think a few AoE degens and such would be great, but we kinda lost those to necros.

Vandal2k6 · Feb 26, 2007, 10:56 AM // 10:56

On a side note, all Mesmer females are hot. :P

Kook~NBK~ · Feb 26, 2007, 11:14 AM // 11:14

I can think of a few ways to make the Mesmer more welcome in PUGs.
1. Introducing more spirit using AIs. That will give Spiritual Pain its life back (I still carry it, BTW)
2. Rid the GW community of people who refuse to acknowledge the exellent capabilities of a good Mesmer in PvE.
3. Know that the elite form of Empathy IS Spiteful Spirit (stupid necro's stole our skill!

- LOL)
4. If you're a primary Mesmer, be a Mesmer! Let the Monks with their divine Favor do the healing - you don't get the extra health with FC, and let the Elementalists with their large energy pool do the nuking - they can handle exhaustion much better.
5. Don't play a Mesmer as a one-target at a time character. If you're the only Mesmer in the party, take something along to mess up 3 or 4 different enemies at the same time. I, using a domination build, backfire the healer, use empathy on a melee guy (it eats assassins alive), take interrupts for caster types, (no Searing flames for you!) throw in a bit of energy management & LB gaze for the Margonites(when they're around), and you're in business! If there are 2 Mesmers, have one set up as anti-caster, and the other as anti-melee.

NeHoMaR · Feb 26, 2007, 11:19 AM // 11:19

There are no PvE "fix" for mesmers, at least Arenanet add a totally new attribute in a future campaign, or make PvE as difficult as PvP when you really NEED mesmers for shutdown monks, etc.; I mean adding very long battles with the same monsters, similar to fight real people (or heroes). I have never seen a PvE monk as difficult as, for example, a very well configured monk hero, aka Dunkoro, Talkora.

Ensign · Feb 26, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Most of the problem with Mesmers comes from the exact problem described in the initial post - monsters are a bunch of headless chickens that you're looking to execute as quickly as possible. A Mesmer can keep a particular enemy from doing anything useful for a time, or can pick apart defensive or offensive elements as neccessary - but neither of those are too valuable in PvE. If you want a particular enemy to stop casting, you can simply kill it - if you want to neutralize part of the monster's offense, the most expedient way is to simply drag their aggro onto a tank of some sort.

You'll notice that you never really need to pick apart particular enemy skillsets in PvE - when they do have something that's worth shutting down, you're probably being blown up by an overload of damage and there's no time to really start working over particular enemies.

I honestly have no clue what they can give Mesmers to make them useful additions to a team in PvE, without breaking them messily in PvP. All you want in PvE is damage and defense, and if you give either of those in sufficient quantities to be useful in PvE, you're going to cause a mess with a profession that'll drop those on top of its already strong mes effects.

Peace,
-CxE

Shanaeri Rynale · Feb 26, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

I suspect one thing they can do, is move some skills into the fast casting attribute line(so as not to be abused by mesmer secondaries or pure dom mesmers),buff the casting time reductions of fast casting or extend FC to skills also.

They did this with monks and skills such as spellbreaker(which logically should be in prot) but that if placed in the prot line would make it OP for other professions.

Jaml · Feb 26, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Just do away with half cast times/half duration of hexex for bosses and mesmers would have it much easier finding a group. As it is bosses and mobs cannot be suppressed efficiently because of their skills and special abilities so the only viable way is pure damage and mesmers suck at that. And certain bosses are immune to certain skills like Power block (Drought) further limiting the class. Basically Anet killed them by making most enemys immune to interrupts, draining and disruption.

Neriandal Freit · Feb 26, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Mesmers aren't killed Jaml. They have never been fully understood and appreicated in the capabilities a player has playing a Mesmer.

Very few across the GW community understand the power of a Mesmer in a proper team. The times I have been in a team, I've been told I'm a "excellent mesmer". Usually, I'm having to hench my way through things which gets rather boring by your self (and a reason why I don't play Alsitha Freit as much as I'd like to!!!), yet when you get a comment like that every now and then, it's nice.

PvE Mesmers need to be able to do more with the skills they have, or have a few skills that do more AOE related like it has been mentioned in this thread. Something like a AOE Empathy would be insane, and would also create many new /Me's farming builds. Which, everyone must keep in mind here because ANET doesn't want to create a new host of farming builds by doing a couple of things for the mesmer.

I'm sure we won't see these implicated for a while more, maybe a month or so. Might even be longer if they await the realse for the new game since they already have the new "Design a Weapon!" contest going on. It'd be easier to get the PvE mesmer going in the new campaign I suspect then it would be to introduce them into the current game setting.

Then again, we never know with ANET do we? I think they just might be a collection of Mesmers screwing around with everyone. Causing Migraines and giving us effects like Cripping Anguish in our off time from Guildwars!....

Shanaeri Rynale · Feb 26, 2007, 02:30 PM // 14:30

There already is an AoE Empathy. It's called spiteful spirit. Acutally SS is more powerful than an AoE empathy as it works off any action not just attacks.

The cast and hex times for bosses are just fine.

As said above i'm not sure what ANet will do, but piling everything into Dom or Illusion would kinda make the class even more powerful in PvP than it already is.

I would hope a complete overhaul of the skill attribute lines, added with some decent AoE and self heal would go a long way to resolve things. My 1st pick would be to change mob behavoir but then the outcry from farmers would be immense.

Gregslot · Feb 26, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

The real problem is that people realy dont think outside of the box.
They just want players with high armor to tank (warriors) high aoe damage (nukers) and heal (monks).
They dont know what the other classes can do, for that they dont even take into consideration taking another class that isnt warriors, monks or nukers.

We can see this happen at Urgoz or at The Deep.
I have been playing as a Channeling ritualist with splinter weapon, when they think i am a "rit lord rit". When they see me casting Splinter Weapon they go "omg, wtf, n00b". But at the end some people say to me "yea you rock" (i hard that last night).
They couldnt see the potential of a channeling ritualist and then i showed to them.

For you all mesmers out there that are having problems with a decent PvE build i have a solution.
Grand Master of Degeneration: AlNAgxO7M4+AbNkhD4JAFw4A
Arcane Dominator: AlRAgyO3mz6AGoBGCcAogSAjDA

The first one you spread -8 hex degen to all your targets for 25 seconds and you hardly ever run out of energy (but eventually will, for some seconds). You just have to you the skills correctly i order to keep ur energy pool. At the end is all about sequence.
1st: Glyph of lesser energy
2nd: Mantra of Persistance
3rd: Conjure Nightmare
- next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
*Energy drain or Energy Tap
-next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
*Energy Drain or Energy Tap
-next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
-next target
1st: Conjure Phantasm
2nd: Images of Remorse
* by this time mantra will have ended and the glyph will have recharged, then you restart the process.
In 30 seconds 5 targets will be suffering from -8 degen for 25 seconds, wich means 400 damage.
If there is a boss you should use all hexes, because bosses usually have some sort of auto-regen.

The second one its easier yo understand. Use Echo to multiply the skill you need the most. If there are too many melees, use it on Empathy. If there are a lot of casters, use it on Backfire. If there are too many hexes, use it on Shatter Hex. If you team is getting your ass kicked by a group filled with melees, use it on Blurred Vision. If there are a lot of dead party memebers, use it on the ress signet.
Just remember to use, at the beginning of the battle,Spirit of Failure followed by Blurred Vision (and not Blurred Vision followed by Spirit of Failure, 2 seconds will make a difference) on a melee to get your energy back.
I use this build at end-game areas, because blurred vision will help avoiding damage and shatter hex will help with the hex removal

Any questions?

Retribution X · Feb 26, 2007, 02:39 PM // 14:39

Actually, all they need to do is make smaller, Tougher mobs.

A part of 8 vs 8 GOOD monsters, is better for a mesmer than a party of 8 vs 12 lvl 20 monsters.

Viruzzz · Feb 26, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

This should now be in the Suggestion Forum.

We all know one of the least wanted professions in the game is the Mesmer.

The profession seems to be focused on slowly taking down 1 target, or completly shutting down 1 type of class.

Both of these of course, are not the most efficient in PvE. In PvE, people want a group of headless chickens (AI running around) dead as soon as possible.

While I personally take Mesmers most of the time when I can (I know how unwanted they are compared to a Monk/Tank/Nuker), I notice the advancement of the group decline a small bit.

So, what do you think ANet could do to buff the Mesmer and make it more valuble in Pve?

Possible Ideas:
Add additional "mesmer-prey" to mobs. (Like Monks that are prone to interruption)
Improve Skill selection.

there is nothing wrong with mesmers in PvE. there is something wrong with players. they don't know what a mesmer can do, and they are too scared to experiment. kinda the same reason why they stand in the middle in the 9-ring.
its not a game flaw, its a flaw in the average players mind.
I will take a mesmer over anything else if i have a spot to fill in a party. and especially the henchman interrupters are great. with their superior reaction time (interrupting a .25 cast spell with a .25 cast spell anyone?)

don't give mesmers anything special just because the average player is stupid. no reason to overpower them so people will use them.

Shady79 · Feb 26, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

don't agree @ Gregslot and Viruzzz. I own 2 mesmers (one will get fow armor).

Sure, "arkane dominator" is nice vs ONE enemy caster. But that's completey useless in pve compared to other classes. Some ele skills are too fast to interrupt and some others can be interrupted without mesmer skills (ele with meteor/meteor shower or by rangers/warriors).

And sure, it's not bad to completely shut down a caster mob by power block. But that is ONE skill and it's elite.

And degeneration without aoe effect is simply uber crap in pve. Some bosses have strong hp regeneration and degeneration takes to long time in general. its only a very weak support for nukers.

Some skill suggestions from me to make mesmers useful in pve:

-> cry of frustration #2

-> (change to) Conjure Nightmare (if target foe suffers from degeneration, all nearby foes suffer from that degeneration too for X...Y seconds)

-> interrupt hex (if the target foe tries to cast a spell within the next 1...8 seconds, that foe is interrupted and the hex ends - without X in attribute Y 50% chance to fail)

-> mirror of hex (15 energy) (if any ally is target of a hex in the next X...Y seconds, that casting foe is target of his own hex instead - without X in attribute Y 50% chance to fail)

and the ultimate idea:

{E} Endless Agony (everytime target foe gets a new hex, all current hexes or/and conditions on target foe last X...Y seconds longer)

Ferret · Feb 26, 2007, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady79

-> interrupt hex (if the target foe tries to cast a spell within the next 1...8 seconds, that foe is interrupted and the hex ends)

Web of Disruption (that i usually carry) almost covers this, so it could just be altered a little to do as you say above.

Shady79 · Feb 26, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

lol no... not really. it's luck to interrupt a foe with web the second time. and you can't imagine the spell which would be interrupted the second time. thats a big difference to an interrupt hex.

Cebe · Feb 26, 2007, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shady79

lol no... not really. it's luck to interrupt a foe with web the second time. and you can't imagine the spell which would be interrupted the second time. thats a big difference to an interrupt hex.

It's not just down to luck, you just need Shatter or Drain Delusions and quick reflexes.

Pakana · Feb 26, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

There's a similar thread in another forum... where I posted much the same as now here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puebert

Add additional "mesmer-prey" to mobs. (Like Monks that are prone to interruption

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retribution X

Actually, all they need to do is make smaller, Tougher mobs.

A part of 8 vs 8 GOOD monsters, is better for a mesmer than a party of 8 vs 12 lvl 20 monsters.

Exactly! That's the core issue in PvE. To kill the monsters you just need high damage output. The monsters cannot protect/heal themselves/each others. Player team healing/protection is superior to the monster teams, so players stay alive while monster die. When monsters win, that's when they do amazing damage fast. Hadly ever the monsters win, because they have good protection/healing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregslot

The real problem is that people realy dont think outside of the box.
They just want players with high armor to tank (warriors) high aoe damage (nukers) and heal (monks).

Also true. Players tend to think they just need more damage to do the job. Or they need second or third monk (so we have a chronical monk shortage). They don't think: hey, "let's take a mesmer." if there are monsters that can be shut down or interrupted, a mesmer is your team's "second monk". And while protecting the team from damage, mesmer also does damage. For example, in UW I usually shut down the other Terrorweb Dryder, then interrupt another. Sometimes all 3 Dryders lost their Meteor Showers. Now, how much monk healing did I just save you from.. would 2 monks be enough?

I'm suggesting:
1) Add more healers and protectors among monster grops. Make monsters more skilled. That's when a mesmer would come handy.
2) Make the energy pool of monsters smaller. Now you simply cannot suck a monster dry of energy.
3) Reduce hex removals among monsters (the monsters may not have much healing, but they sure have hex removals!)
4) Remove the natural recovery of hexes and conditions from bosses.
5) Reduce the inhuman life regen from bosses and some monsters, instead give them better skills (life drain is pretty much useless in PvE)
6) Add new illusion line skills. While domination line is okay, the illusion line is mostly useless in PvE.
7) increase casting times of spells (at least in PvE). It's VERY hard to reactively interrupt spell casting or actions. Spell casting has become faster and faster all the time in GW, nerfing mesmer interruption continuously.
8) Nerf ranger interrupting. I know this won't be a popular suggestion, but most ppl think a ranger can interrupt better than a mesmer.
EDIT:
Forgot this:
9) Give mesmer spells some visible and audible effects so that others know too, mesmer did something.